dex21
Neutral Gear
Posts: 8
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Post by dex21 on Jul 29, 2008 9:40:21 GMT 8
Hi dex21, I owned a New Carens for about a year already.. but i do not know much.. I am not a very technical guy.. LOL, but according to your questions: I can only answer a few: 1. FC for city and expressway: combined about 9-10km/L, after change to synthetic oil(Provided light footed and precise control) 2. Mods you can ask SkyRay 3. Feedback: Stable, Heavy, Spacious, Comfortable, Responsive Gear (even though auto), Reliable, wont feel like its floating at 110km/h, but 110km/h is like other cars 100km/h 4. headlight projector lamps: Nope Hope i helped in someway or another Hi, johnn. Thanks for the answers to my doubts. Wow, with light-footed also bearly getting 10km/l. Looks like FC quite jialat. Almost same as SUV le. Actually im driving a chevy now. Its 1.4L, its heavy, but i still manage to get 12-13km/l. If really change to carens, duno can take the FC anot.
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dex21
Neutral Gear
Posts: 8
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Post by dex21 on Jul 29, 2008 10:00:58 GMT 8
Hi dex21, Welcome to SKCarens.... Will try to answer your questions as best to my capability & knowledge... (in addition to Johnn's) Cycle & Carriage servicing price? Maintenance Cost? C&C's servicing price is actually quite expensive... however, upon purchasing a new car from C&C, you should be given 100,000km or 3 yrs warranty, & 1st 3 svc FOC labor-charge. So for your 1st 1k, 5k & 10k svcing, you should go back to C&C... subsequent svcing (@ 10k intervals, synthetic oil), u can either (1) go back to C&C everytime & 'protects' your warranty, (2) occasionally go back to C&C, (3) switch to other coy... (for option (2) & (3), u risk losing your warranty... I took option (2)... went to C&C for 1k, 5k, 10k & 30k, while I went CDGE for 20k & 40k... now approaching my 50k... Once yr 3yrs is up, dont bother to go back to C&C... Despite me not going back to C&C, my warranty is still honored during the 1st 3yrs... Any common problem of the car that service center cant solve? Carens is generally 'problem-free', although there are occassional 'compliants' of this & that, but that's just tough luck... its not some generic common problem... Com'on, technology has improved drastically for modern cars, u hardly will ve problems... C&C svc ctr sometimes do sucks! they sometime can;t seems to understand your problem & as a results they may not be able to resolve them. Ultimately, you ve to understand yr car & treat it as your 'mistress', then u will personally know yr car inside out & may even be able to solve the problem w/o visiting any workshop... FC with road conditions and driving styles? Johnn has answered this qn... Any mods to do, eg. air intake/exos/bk? There are plenty of mods of cos'... but what do u actually want? performance (at the expense of fuel consumption (FC)) or good FC (at the expense of performance) performance & FC are at the opp end, who ever said u can achieve both at the same time is kidding you! You can only try to strike a good balance betw them... If u are really into 'mods', u can try (1) cold air intake (to boost your engine burning capability, (2) RMK202 or Superione (to boost your braking power), (3) FuelCat (to improve your yr fuel's burning capability), (4) grounding (to improve yr electrical current)... these are some of the mods that i've tested & appreciates... Do take note that as not all drivers drive the same way, thus not all mods will be good for everyone, it all depends on your driving habits... some swear that it works, some curse at it... Words of advice... do not mod all at one go... do it one at a time, so that u can learn & appreciate which is good & which is not so useful... The other thing is, usually after all these mods, u gain 'performance'.. which over time, u will get used to it & tends to 'step' more on the gas pedal... which then will draw-down on yr FC... its about man-over-machine... Any good/bad feedback lah. Heehee. Carens is a good buy, money-wise, for a decent 7 seater, where on SG can u get a 7-seater at this kinda price... But do consider whether u need a 7-seater... cos' u will ve to consider the insurance premium for a 7-seater, road tax for a 2L, & most impt of all... FC for a 2L... if u can handle all the above, then go for it... I will not encourage nor discourage u into buying a Carens, but u must understand the facts first so that u can make a calculated decision... When u (& if u) decided to get a Carens, get back to us again, we will tell u what u should include in yr purchase... Oh ya, are the headlights projector lamps? Are u refering to HID? if so, e answer is 'NO", it doesn;t comes w HID... & when not properly done, its a NUISANCE to other road users... & its a electrical hazard too... Hope u find the above 'lengthy' reply useful... Hi skyray, Thanks for ur effort for providing all the info. Wow, i didnt know that there will be a increase in the insurance premium, do anyone know it can increase by how many percent? Glad it is a problem free car. Cos am driving a chevy, and this model is actually having some common problems that all new cars have, even if claiming warr for these problems, the service technician would actually mention its common problem. So this is actually my worries. As for mods, just checking/asking. Thinking if really getting this model, more of maintainence mods to be done than performance. Afterall, this is a family car! Oh, didnt know tat Cycle & carriage is still abit relak on the servicing part. Which is a good solution to go in interval servicing. For me, i do intend to change to a 7 seater due to my big family. So far had only test drove/looking at daihatsu terios 7 seaters and kia carens. Overall, kia carens is stronger(2L), more comfortable and spaceous, and anti roll is better. Terios, can say is higher, giving more gadgets or freebies(pay more), higher omv(18k), cheaper road tax but weak(1.5L). Well, i will still consider, what is best for me, open up my options for more models, but jap models are too costly. Once again, thanks a million for the advise and reply, and nice knowing u guys. ;D
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Post by sktan10 on Jul 29, 2008 11:29:50 GMT 8
Hi dex21, Welcome to SKCarens.... Will try to answer your questions as best to my capability & knowledge... (in addition to Johnn's) Cycle & Carriage servicing price? Maintenance Cost? C&C's servicing price is actually quite expensive... however, upon purchasing a new car from C&C, you should be given 100,000km or 3 yrs warranty, & 1st 3 svc FOC labor-charge. So for your 1st 1k, 5k & 10k svcing, you should go back to C&C... subsequent svcing (@ 10k intervals, synthetic oil), u can either (1) go back to C&C everytime & 'protects' your warranty, (2) occasionally go back to C&C, (3) switch to other coy... (for option (2) & (3), u risk losing your warranty... I took option (2)... went to C&C for 1k, 5k, 10k & 30k, while I went CDGE for 20k & 40k... now approaching my 50k... Once yr 3yrs is up, dont bother to go back to C&C... Despite me not going back to C&C, my warranty is still honored during the 1st 3yrs... Any common problem of the car that service center cant solve? Carens is generally 'problem-free', although there are occassional 'compliants' of this & that, but that's just tough luck... its not some generic common problem... Com'on, technology has improved drastically for modern cars, u hardly will ve problems... C&C svc ctr sometimes do sucks! they sometime can;t seems to understand your problem & as a results they may not be able to resolve them. Ultimately, you ve to understand yr car & treat it as your 'mistress', then u will personally know yr car inside out & may even be able to solve the problem w/o visiting any workshop... FC with road conditions and driving styles? Johnn has answered this qn... Any mods to do, eg. air intake/exos/bk? There are plenty of mods of cos'... but what do u actually want? performance (at the expense of fuel consumption (FC)) or good FC (at the expense of performance) performance & FC are at the opp end, who ever said u can achieve both at the same time is kidding you! You can only try to strike a good balance betw them... If u are really into 'mods', u can try (1) cold air intake (to boost your engine burning capability, (2) RMK202 or Superione (to boost your braking power), (3) FuelCat (to improve your yr fuel's burning capability), (4) grounding (to improve yr electrical current)... these are some of the mods that i've tested & appreciates... Do take note that as not all drivers drive the same way, thus not all mods will be good for everyone, it all depends on your driving habits... some swear that it works, some curse at it... Words of advice... do not mod all at one go... do it one at a time, so that u can learn & appreciate which is good & which is not so useful... The other thing is, usually after all these mods, u gain 'performance'.. which over time, u will get used to it & tends to 'step' more on the gas pedal... which then will draw-down on yr FC... its about man-over-machine... Any good/bad feedback lah. Heehee. Carens is a good buy, money-wise, for a decent 7 seater, where on SG can u get a 7-seater at this kinda price... But do consider whether u need a 7-seater... cos' u will ve to consider the insurance premium for a 7-seater, road tax for a 2L, & most impt of all... FC for a 2L... if u can handle all the above, then go for it... I will not encourage nor discourage u into buying a Carens, but u must understand the facts first so that u can make a calculated decision... When u (& if u) decided to get a Carens, get back to us again, we will tell u what u should include in yr purchase... Oh ya, are the headlights projector lamps? Are u refering to HID? if so, e answer is 'NO", it doesn;t comes w HID... & when not properly done, its a NUISANCE to other road users... & its a electrical hazard too... Hope u find the above 'lengthy' reply useful... Hi skyray, Thanks for ur effort for providing all the info. Wow, i didnt know that there will be a increase in the insurance premium, do anyone know it can increase by how many percent? Glad it is a problem free car. Cos am driving a chevy, and this model is actually having some common problems that all new cars have, even if claiming warr for these problems, the service technician would actually mention its common problem. So this is actually my worries. As for mods, just checking/asking. Thinking if really getting this model, more of maintainence mods to be done than performance. Afterall, this is a family car! Oh, didnt know tat Cycle & carriage is still abit relak on the servicing part. Which is a good solution to go in interval servicing. For me, i do intend to change to a 7 seater due to my big family. So far had only test drove/looking at daihatsu terios 7 seaters and kia carens. Overall, kia carens is stronger(2L), more comfortable and spaceous, and anti roll is better. Terios, can say is higher, giving more gadgets or freebies(pay more), higher omv(18k), cheaper road tax but weak(1.5L). Well, i will still consider, what is best for me, open up my options for more models, but jap models are too costly. Once again, thanks a million for the advise and reply, and nice knowing u guys. ;D Terios 7-seater third row seat is brench type,not 50:50 split type.Meaning either full-up or full-down.50:50 split type still can use half for luggage half for seating so more practical. Due to the width at 1820mm for carens,second row no problem sitting 4 adults.I have try 2+4+3 seating configuration before.Third row 1 adult & 2 children. Like some bro said,only road tax & petrol will be more for carens. If u dont mind PI,now still have honda freed 1.5A 7-seater or 8-seater version can consider.I seen the car at IMM.Quite spacious for it size.$66888 for basic. Go to these url for viewing- www.shc-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=139509&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=55aa408a0c93e27c6247311dd23d8c4a
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Post by SkyRay on Jul 29, 2008 11:36:40 GMT 8
Hi Dex21,
Exactly!... a Hodna Stream, (1.8L)... 7 seater, will set u back by ard $78k...
A Terios-7, (1.5L) will set u set by ard $68k...
A decent 7 seater has to be spacious & powerful enough to move the load (vehicle+pax)... i doubt the capability of those so-called 1.3-1.5L MPV... if u often ferry full load, then maybe should consider a higher cc model...
The NewCarens now is ard $57k, that's $20k cheaper than Honda Stream, more spacious than Stream, more power than Stream... hahaha... the choice is a no-brainer right? & if u get a Stream, u are paying $20K more upfront... compared to a Korean where the only concern is probably FC (ie petrol price), which is paid slowly over the years...
You cannot compare your Chevy to any of the other Japs & Korean model, cos' its a totally different category... There's still plenty of rooms for Chevy to improve... give it another 10yrs maybe... If your Chevy clocks 12km/L, that's actually just average (or infact below average for the Chevy platform)... So for NewCarens to clock 10km/l is quite good liao... Stream also clocking ard 11-12km/l... i even know one guy who's Stream clock only 9km/l (see, drivign habits & conditions plays an impt part).
As for insurance issue, i dont mean that it will be costlier for a Carens, what i meant was that the insurance for a 7-seater will definitely be higher than a regular 5-seater, by the same named driver...
Come down & meet up with us!
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dex21
Neutral Gear
Posts: 8
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Post by dex21 on Jul 29, 2008 12:01:43 GMT 8
Hi skyray, Thanks for ur effort for providing all the info. Wow, i didnt know that there will be a increase in the insurance premium, do anyone know it can increase by how many percent? Glad it is a problem free car. Cos am driving a chevy, and this model is actually having some common problems that all new cars have, even if claiming warr for these problems, the service technician would actually mention its common problem. So this is actually my worries. As for mods, just checking/asking. Thinking if really getting this model, more of maintainence mods to be done than performance. Afterall, this is a family car! Oh, didnt know tat Cycle & carriage is still abit relak on the servicing part. Which is a good solution to go in interval servicing. For me, i do intend to change to a 7 seater due to my big family. So far had only test drove/looking at daihatsu terios 7 seaters and kia carens. Overall, kia carens is stronger(2L), more comfortable and spaceous, and anti roll is better. Terios, can say is higher, giving more gadgets or freebies(pay more), higher omv(18k), cheaper road tax but weak(1.5L). Well, i will still consider, what is best for me, open up my options for more models, but jap models are too costly. Once again, thanks a million for the advise and reply, and nice knowing u guys. ;D Terios 7-seater third row seat is brench type,not 50:50 split type.Meaning either full-up or full-down.50:50 split type still can use half for luggage half for seating so more practical. Due to the width at 1820mm for carens,second row no problem sitting 4 adults.I have try 2+4+3 seating configuration before.Third row 1 adult & 2 children. Like some bro said,only road tax & petrol will be more for carens. If u dont mind PI,now still have honda freed 1.5A 7-seater or 8-seater version can consider.I seen the car at IMM.Quite spacious for it size.$66888 for basic. Go to these url for viewing- www.shc-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=139509&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=55aa408a0c93e27c6247311dd23d8c4aHi sktan10, yes u r right abt terios, and its 3rd row is not as spaceous as carens'. What u mention is right. I did not actually thought of the seat folding issue. Thanks for reminding me! Actually im looking at buying a opc, as i dun drive to work. So road tax is abt 400 per year(after rebate). Main concern is actually insurance and petrol, as im 26, so insurance is tough for my current car, have to really check how much is the premium for me. Haha, my frenz also told me honda freed, i have not seen it, but will find time to take a look at it. Thanks!
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dex21
Neutral Gear
Posts: 8
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Post by dex21 on Jul 29, 2008 12:16:40 GMT 8
Hi Dex21, Exactly!... a Hodna Stream, (1.8L)... 7 seater, will set u back by ard $78k... A Terios-7, (1.5L) will set u set by ard $68k... A decent 7 seater has to be spacious & powerful enough to move the load (vehicle+pax)... i doubt the capability of those so-called 1.3-1.5L MPV... if u often ferry full load, then maybe should consider a higher cc model... The NewCarens now is ard $57k, that's $20k cheaper than Honda Stream, more spacious than Stream, more power than Stream... hahaha... the choice is a no-brainer right? & if u get a Stream, u are paying $20K more upfront... compared to a Korean where the only concern is probably FC (ie petrol price), which is paid slowly over the years... You cannot compare your Chevy to any of the other Japs & Korean model, cos' its a totally different category... There's still plenty of rooms for Chevy to improve... give it another 10yrs maybe... If your Chevy clocks 12km/L, that's actually just average (or infact below average for the Chevy platform)... So for NewCarens to clock 10km/l is quite good liao... Stream also clocking ard 11-12km/l... i even know one guy who's Stream clock only 9km/l (see, drivign habits & conditions plays an impt part). As for insurance issue, i dont mean that it will be costlier for a Carens, what i meant was that the insurance for a 7-seater will definitely be higher than a regular 5-seater, by the same named driver... Come down & meet up with us! Hi skyray, True, honda stream is too high for my budget. Guess my option are terios 7 seater, carens, freed, sienta, apv(i hate the looks). I was quoted carens at 60k. Paiseh, dun be mistaken, im not using my chevy to compare the fc with carens, wat i meant was the amt i spending every mth now, would increase 30% for driving carens. I understand u dun meant by the insurance will increase for carens, but all 7 seaters. Cos at first, i thought insurance will increase due to engine CC and age only(apart for those who had bad record with claim). I would try to see if i can make it and drop by for ur meet-up.
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Post by Lemon-Engine on Jul 29, 2008 12:27:48 GMT 8
dex21. talking about sienta, that dont really qualify under the "7-seater" category.. cos i find it rather small. It would be much worse than Terios and stream, i believe. You can try Wish if you desire, but i hardly see any new Wish and Stream on the road because of its common "Taxi Look", though Carens now also got Taxi, but not a lot..
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Post by sktan10 on Jul 29, 2008 13:05:54 GMT 8
Terios 7-seater third row seat is brench type,not 50:50 split type.Meaning either full-up or full-down.50:50 split type still can use half for luggage half for seating so more practical. Due to the width at 1820mm for carens,second row no problem sitting 4 adults.I have try 2+4+3 seating configuration before.Third row 1 adult & 2 children. Like some bro said,only road tax & petrol will be more for carens. If u dont mind PI,now still have honda freed 1.5A 7-seater or 8-seater version can consider.I seen the car at IMM.Quite spacious for it size.$66888 for basic. Go to these url for viewing- www.shc-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=139509&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=55aa408a0c93e27c6247311dd23d8c4aHi sktan10, yes u r right abt terios, and its 3rd row is not as spaceous as carens'. What u mention is right. I did not actually thought of the seat folding issue. Thanks for reminding me! Actually im looking at buying a opc, as i dun drive to work. So road tax is abt 400 per year(after rebate). Main concern is actually insurance and petrol, as im 26, so insurance is tough for my current car, have to really check how much is the premium for me. Haha, my frenz also told me honda freed, i have not seen it, but will find time to take a look at it. Thanks! If u buy opc ,then should be no problem on petrol cos u dont use it every day.If these is the case,i recommend u to get carens. Like some bro said,when u take 7 to 9 person,u need a spacious mpv for your passenger comfort & bigger cc for the power u need.U can do a experiment yourself. Try using your 1.4cc aveo pack with 1 passenger in front & 5 at the back & try for short distance & up slope,u sure will feel it under-power.So can imagine 1.5cc mpv pack with 7 passenger onboard. One thing i like carens is the 8-speed air con.It is very cooling. Under very hot day,speed 4 is enough to cool till 3rd row. Another thing is the sport mode transmission which u cant find on terios or freed.It is good for overtaking & u can drive it like manual car too.
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dex21
Neutral Gear
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Post by dex21 on Jul 29, 2008 14:07:07 GMT 8
dex21. talking about sienta, that dont really qualify under the "7-seater" category.. cos i find it rather small. It would be much worse than Terios and stream, i believe. You can try Wish if you desire, but i hardly see any new Wish and Stream on the road because of its common "Taxi Look", though Carens now also got Taxi, but not a lot.. johnn, haha, i mention those models tat r below 70k, which is within my budget.1 think i dislike wish, which is the model and looks are very long le. kinda Super Common, imagine i close my eyes and point on a expressway, sure point to a wish. Haha. Well, really.... the models i mention, my first choice is still Carens , followed by terios-7. But still, this will be the 2nd car i buying, i will still wait and consider carefully, unlike 1st time buying car, very rush, cant wait to collect . One last and MAIN issue, my current car is only bearly 2 yrs, so i need to see how much to top up for my full settlement.
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dex21
Neutral Gear
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Post by dex21 on Jul 29, 2008 14:31:19 GMT 8
Hi sktan10, yes u r right abt terios, and its 3rd row is not as spaceous as carens'. What u mention is right. I did not actually thought of the seat folding issue. Thanks for reminding me! Actually im looking at buying a opc, as i dun drive to work. So road tax is abt 400 per year(after rebate). Main concern is actually insurance and petrol, as im 26, so insurance is tough for my current car, have to really check how much is the premium for me. Haha, my frenz also told me honda freed, i have not seen it, but will find time to take a look at it. Thanks! If u buy opc ,then should be no problem on petrol cos u dont use it every day.If these is the case,i recommend u to get carens. Like some bro said,when u take 7 to 9 person,u need a spacious mpv for your passenger comfort & bigger cc for the power u need.U can do a experiment yourself. Try using your 1.4cc aveo pack with 1 passenger in front & 5 at the back & try for short distance & up slope,u sure will feel it under-power.So can imagine 1.5cc mpv pack with 7 passenger onboard. One thing i like carens is the 8-speed air con.It is very cooling. Under very hot day,speed 4 is enough to cool till 3rd row. Another thing is the sport mode transmission which u cant find on terios or freed.It is good for overtaking & u can drive it like manual car too. Oh ya, didnt expect that carens have rear air-con, cos online posted don't have. Then somemore online stated that the side mirrors are auto retractable, but actual fact, it cant. U r right bro, the overdrive is a good feature! Where terios only have a extra gear at D3. Which is use to drop gear for overtaking. Haha. CARENS IS SO TEMPTING!!!!!
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Post by Lemon-Engine on Jul 29, 2008 16:20:02 GMT 8
Yeah.. Its tempting.. Go and buy ba.. Weekends Kia Leng Kee Showroom open until late night 10pm.. hahaha
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Post by Lemon-Engine on Jul 29, 2008 16:44:19 GMT 8
Hmm, anybody New Carens is grey? I feel like respraying the whole car to grey leh.. My Aqua Blue too common on the roads.. :x
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Post by SkyRay on Jul 29, 2008 17:26:22 GMT 8
Then why u take aqua blue in the first place? I like my color... Carbon-Grey... hehehehe...
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Post by Lemon-Engine on Jul 29, 2008 17:30:25 GMT 8
SkyRay, my girlfriend liked that color, so no choice... hahaha.. My first choice was Silver, though
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Post by nowhere on Jul 29, 2008 17:52:48 GMT 8
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muddy
Neutral Gear
Posts: 7
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Post by muddy on Jul 29, 2008 19:30:01 GMT 8
Wow bro skyray this thread is getting more and more ppl asking question about carens they must be like me after test drive got hook ,as for me i m still waiting for a good deal from c&c than i make my move maybe the price will drop again like 56k again se from c&c told me the 56k was for the 2006 made now 60k is 2008 made i m monitoring the price like an eagle now ;D anyway i took ur advice and bro sktan i stick to normal carens the cng i think is a no no cng is increasing like nobody buisness been monitoring that too think is not worthwhile and read in mycarforum lta will introduce a special tax for cng after 2009 so cng is out
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Post by Lemon-Engine on Jul 30, 2008 1:22:16 GMT 8
muddy, glad you thought this way the 2008 made also looks like the same one as the 2006 make??
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Post by SkyRay on Jul 30, 2008 8:05:44 GMT 8
Bro muddy,
Glad that u find our advices useful... no point getting a 7-seater, then remove 3rd row to install CNG... then back to a 5 seater... right? Plus, the car will still be registered as a 7-seater, do not know whether is the insurance still charged as 7-seater???
Then if end up with 5 seater, might as well take a 5-seater, a regular sedan???
Let us know when you committ & join us a a proud SKCarens!!!!!!
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Post by SkyRay on Jul 30, 2008 8:06:45 GMT 8
Yup, Carens' forum (esp this thread) is getting warmer by the days... glad that more people are getting active in this forum....
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Post by Lemon-Engine on Jul 30, 2008 11:50:35 GMT 8
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Post by Lemon-Engine on Jul 30, 2008 12:50:37 GMT 8
Hey Guys, I need help here.. I am unable to release my alarm (as in open the car doors). I just changed batteries but it still wouldnt work. I could not open with my keys because i had locked the car using the car alarm system remote. It would sound off (very irritating). How do i solve the problem?
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dex21
Neutral Gear
Posts: 8
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Post by dex21 on Jul 30, 2008 13:50:03 GMT 8
Hey Guys, I need help here.. I am unable to release my alarm (as in open the car doors). I just changed batteries but it still wouldnt work. I could not open with my keys because i had locked the car using the car alarm system remote. It would sound off (very irritating). How do i solve the problem? Hi bro, even if i dun own a kia, hope my advise do help u. 1) To fix your remote, go back to agent, if new batteries still dun work. 2) To unlock your car for the time being. Use your car key manually, of cos as u mention, your alarm will sound off and your remote cant function to disarm the sound, just insert your car key to iginition, your alarm should stop. I based on most cars' alarm system. Correct me if kia's alarm is diff. Hope this help u.
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Post by Lemon-Engine on Jul 30, 2008 14:06:17 GMT 8
Dex21, anyway, that method i tried before.. It will disarm a while only.. after that, the irritating sound will come back, hahah. I have to activate the valet switch instead..
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Post by SkyRay on Jul 30, 2008 14:39:37 GMT 8
Johnn,
do u have a alarm disarming button somewhere in the driver's cockpit? it's usually under the steering wheel or below 'A' pillar...
once u locate that button, u can insert yr orignal key to start the engine & at the same time press that button... your alarm will be disarmed...
try it...
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Post by Lemon-Engine on Jul 30, 2008 16:00:37 GMT 8
Err.. I dont understand leh.. I very green.. despite driving this car for more than a year ler.. hahaha
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